Transcript of Hearing on TRO 5/30/95 Continued

CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. THOMAS:

Q. Could you tell us, captain, how wide Pennsylvania Avenue
A. No I really don't know. but it is very wide. I think it is approximately six lanes.
Q. Six lanes with a center lane, isn't it?
A. SIX lanes with a center lane, that is correct.

MR. THOMAS: And so for the record I Would like to clear up if I am still under oath, you were pretty close on that. Actually the sign is four feet wide.

THE WITNESS: Thank you for correcting me.

BY MR. THOMAS:

Q. But that would still leave enough, even though the sign is four feet wide, that still leaves a Iot more than six lanes of unobstructed roadway, doesn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall my asking you to tell me what regulations I was in violation of?
A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. And do you recall my asking you to contact the Corporation Counsel"s Office, and that you didn't know what regulation I was violating?
A. You asked me for the number. I told you that I didn't

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know the number of the regulation that you were violating, and yes, you did ask me to call the Corporation Counsel's Office.
Q. And then didn't -- do you recall me telling you that I thought that I had the right to do what I was doing, and that I was protected by law, and that even before you arrested me it would be in everyone’s best interest if you called the Corporation Counsel's Office to see whether or not I was violating a regulation?
A. Yes, you did say that.
Q. And did you do that?
A. No, No, I did not.
Q. So actually I guess since this sign is only four feet wide, and I don’t suppose that you would dispute that Pennsylvania Avenue is ninety feet wide?
A. I really can't say how wide it is in feet, sir, I really don't know.
Q. Okay. Well, since we agree that it is at least seven lanes wide, isn't it fair to say that a four foot sign in a Seven lane road isn't an obstruction?
A. f would not say that, sir. We don’t allow anything in the roadway that would obstruct what the roadway was designed for.
Q. And what is the roadway designed for?
A. The roadway is designed to carry vehicular traffic

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and/or pedestrians at certain times, and it still does that, although the vehicular traffic is restricted to the police, fire, emergency vehicles and motorcades.
Q. Are you in that area on -- let me rephrase it. How often have you been there since the park has been -- since the street bas been Closed? How long have you been stationed three?
A. Stationed? I haven't been stationed there.
Q. Well, what do you call -- why were you there on the day -- on May 26th, the date that you asked me to move, if you weren’t stationed there, then what was it that you were there for.

THE COURT: He just told us a little while ago in response to my question. He was there discussing with somebody from the National Park Service the question of making a movie, is that right?

THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: That is what he was there far then.

BY MR. THOMAS:

Q. So you were there -- that is the early reason that you were in the park that day was to discuss a movie?
A. Yes, Sir. Me personally.
Q. You personally. So you personally haven't spent a lot of time -- have you, personally, spent -- how much time have you personally spent -- how much time have you personally

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spent in that area Since the closing of the park?
A. Very little
Q. Very Little.

THE COURT: You didn't go there for the purpose of arresting anybody, did you?

THE WITNESS: No, Your Honor.

MR. THOMAS: Your honor, that wasn't what I was trying to get at.

THE COURT: I know. But I wanted to get that for the record, whatever the record is, whatever the facts are

BY MR, THOMAS:

Q. The point that I am trying to get at here, in the time that you have been there, have you ever seen a vehicle going down Pennsylvania Avenue?
A. Yes, sir, many times,
Q. Have you ever seen -- since the closing now?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you ever seen two vehicles going down Pennsylvania Avenue abreast?
A. Abreast?
Q. Abreast, next to one another?
A. Not that I recall, sir.
Q. So there could have been, in that case many signs in the Street, and there still would have been no obstruction to the traffic that was going through?

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A. Many?
Q. Signs?
A. Like the type of signs that you have, sir?
Q. Yes?
A. Well, it depends on how many you put out there.
Q. Well, lets see, if there are --
A. The center of the roadway -the center portion of the Roadway where you had your sign, we could not use what we normally use it for, which would be staging of dignitary motorcades. You have rendered that inoperable for us when you stuck your --
Q. Have you seen any dignitary motorcades going down the center lane since May 20th
A. I have not seen them, but I have -- we have operated on Pennsylvania Avenue, When we go to the Blair House, or when we bring dignitaries into the White House that enter out of the northwest gate.
Q. But there is no -- there is no law, or regulation, or anything, that designates a certain area that needs to be kept free of signs, or pedestrians, or roller bladers for the purpose of insuring free access to motorcades, is there?
A. Could you repeat your question? I am not sure --
Q. Is there any regulation that addresses keeping a certain portion of the street open for motorcades
A. I am not sure. I wouldn't say just for motorcades,

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Q. If there was a motorcade

THE COURT: Go ahead.

By MR. THOMAS:

Q. In the event that some emergency happened, would you be capable of clearing Pennsylvania Avenue?
A. Of pedestrians?
Q. Whatever is there. Pedestrians, or signs if that was -you would be capable of clearing it of anything wouldn’t you?
A. I would say so, sir, but depending on what was there it would take more time. To give you an example, if there were just people there you could clear it very quickly.
Q. How long would it take people --
A. If there were people like yourself with obstructions on the avenue, it would take us longer.
Q. This sign that YOU are referring to as a structure, how long did it take the people to carry in out of the street?
A. Oh, not very long.
Q. less than a minute?
A. Yes.
Q. So that wouldn’t have create any problem to get that out of the way if there was a need for it?
A. It would all depend, sir, on what the emergency was, and how soon people were trying to occupy the same space as you,
Q. I mean that area isn't normally closed dawn, in fact

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that area is really opened, isn't it, the avenue -- the Pennsylvania Avenue, the pavement of Pennsylvania Avenue which is your jurisdictional that area is open, isn’t it to the public
A. It is Open to the public, yes.
Q. So if there was a reason to, say, reserve two lanes for motorcades that might come through, I mean that could be arranged, couldn’t it I mean if you only wanted to leave certain areas open to the public, you could close dawn two lanes, or three lanes, or four lanes, or whatever it is that you needed:

If you wanted to keep signs off from certain parts of the pavement, you could just close down certain parts of the pavement that you had some substantial interest In keeping open at all times, and so you would be able to obviate the need of having to deal with someone like myself who might want to use the area to enjoy First Amendment Constitutional legal rights?

Rather than arrest them, you could just close a certain area to keep it opened, couldn't you?
A. Yes, but that is not really how we do it. whenever we have motorcades, we sterilize the whole area to protect the motorcade. So we would take -- if we had a motorcade on the avenue, we would have the whole area cleared out of all of the lanes, whether we used them or not, for security.

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Q. And then you could have just left my sign there until you had one of these incidents where you had to sterilize the area, and then you could have come over to me and said, we have to sterilize the area, would you take your sign out of the area? You could have don't that, couldn’t you?
A. If we are just talking about the motorcades, but here again you know, you are asking me to guess on what would happen.
Q. I didn't bring up the motorcades, Captain. You brought up the motorcades.
A. Right.
Q. I --
A. It is not just the motorcades. It is occupying the public space.
Q. And that is a specific regulation?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Is that what you are saying?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you don't know which regulation that is?
A. I don't know the number, no, sir.

MR. THOMAS: I don't think that I have any further questions.

THE COURT: All right. Thank you very much, Mr. Thomas. Do you have any questions, either of you?

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MR. LAWRENCE: I do, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All Right, you may proceed.

MR. LAWRENCE: May it please the court, Craig Lawrence, Assistant United States Attorney far the federal defendants in this case,