THE COURT: Thank you.
M. J. RADZILOWSKI Government Witness, SWORN
DIRECT EXAMINATION
THE COURT: Give us your full name and occupation,
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sir?
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. Michael Radailowski. I am a Captain
assigned to the Metropolitan Police Department, Special operations Division.
THE COURT: And did there come a time when you had occasion to
recently, during this month, see the plaintiff, Mr. William Thomas?
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: On what occasion was that? Tell us the circumstances?
THE WITNESS: Well, YOUR Honor, I was on Pennsylvania Avenue with
the Secret Service and some park representatives about movie making on
Pennsylvania Avenue. THE COURT: About what'
THE WITNESS: About movie making.
THE COURT: Movie making?
THE WITNESS: Movie making.
THE COURT: M-o-v-I-e.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir,
THE COURT: All right. What day was that
THE WITNESS: I believe it was a Wednesday at about 2:00 o'clock.
THE COURT: Do you need a calendar? Let the record show that the
Court has handed the witness a calendar, 1995, May. All right, Captain. What
day was it that you saw the
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plaintiff this month?
THE WITNESS: I thought that it was Wednesday, Your
Honor.
THE COURT: What date was it?
THE WITNESS: I thought it was Wednesday, the twenty-fourth.
THE COURT: All right. Was that the day that you
were arrested, Mr., Thomas
MR. THOMAS: No, it wasn't,
THE COURT: What day were you arrested on?
MR. THOMAS: May the 26th.
THE COURT: May the 26th. All right,, did you see the plaintiff on May
the 24th, Captain
THE WITNESS: That is the day that I thought it was, Your Honor.
THE COURT: And he says it is on another date, the
twenty-sixty do you say?
MR. THOMAS: Yes.
THE COURT: What time of day was it, sir?
THE WITNESS: It was approximately 2:00 o'clock in the afternoon, sir.
THE COURT: Do you agree with that, Mr. Thomas?
MR. THOMAS: That is close enough.
THE COURT: All right. What happened when -- tell us what happened
27
THE WITNESS: Well, Your Honor, I was standing on the sidewalk on
the north side of Lafayette park when I saw Mr. Thomas
THE COURT: Wait a minute, the north side of Lafayette Park, That
means -
THE WITNESS: The --
THE COURT: Listen.
THE WITNESS: Yes, Sir.
THE COURT: That means the side nearest the U. S. Chamber of
Commerce.
THE WITNESS: yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right, good.
THE WITNESS: But that --
THE COURT: IS that inaccurate?
THE WITNESS: Yes sir. Thank you for correcting me. I was standing
on the North side of Pennsylvania Avenue on the south Side of Lafayette Bark.
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: At which time, directly in front of the White House,
coming from the South side of the park, I observed Mr., Thomas and another
individual drag what I would describe as a sawed off lifeguard chair, which was
very large and very big, into the middle of the street.
THE COURT: How much are you indicating, how wide and haw large it
is
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THE WITNESS: It looks like to me like three feet -- approximately three
feet long and three feet wide, with a big back take had various messages
written on it
THE COURT: How high was it
THE WITNESS: 1 -- approximate -- it was
approximately three, three and a half feet or so.
THE COURT: High?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: How wide?
THE WITNESS: Approximately three feet.
THE COURT: And what happened after that?
THE WITNESS: Well, after the meeting was over I went over and
talked to MR. Thomas. I advised him that he couldn’t have
THE COURT: Wait a minute, excuse me. I apologize for interrupting
you,
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: After the meeting was over, the meeting between whom?
THE WITNESS: The meeting that I was standing there discussing these
movie details with the Secret Service and people from the United States Park
Service.
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: which lasted approximately ten minutes.
29
THE COURT: All night.
THE WITNESS: As soon as the meeting was over, I walked to Mr.
Thomas.
THE COURT: And where was he when you walked to him?
THE WITNESS: He was in the middle of Pennsylvania Avenue, directly
in front of the White House.
THE COURT: All right. What happened then?
THE WITNESS: I engaged Mr. Thomas in a discussion, advised him
that he could not have the structure in the middle of Pennsylvania Avenue, and
at which time Mr. Thomas told me that he had talked to somebody from the
Corporation counsel who told him that he could have it in the middle of
Pennsylvania avenue, at which time I then explained it to him why he couldn’t
have it on the street in front of Pennsylvania Avenue.
And I told him that he would have to take it back into the park where he
could legally be, because that is where he was. And at that time Mr. Thomas
refused to remove the structure from Pennsylvania Avenue, and I told him that
if he did not move the structure from Pennsylvania Avenue, which was
obstructing the avenue, I would have to have him arrested for failing to Obey a
lawful order.
THE COURT: All right, Captain. You say -- was Mr. Thomas alone or
Was he with somebody as these artifacts, ~~
30
whatever they were, were dragged out onto the street from the park? the
street being Pennsylvania Avenue in front of the white House.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. At the time that he
dragged it out, there was another individual who helped him.
THE COURT: Was it a male or female?
THE WITNESS: It was a male, sir.
THE COURT: Did you get that person’s name?
THE WITNESS: No, Your Honor
THE COURT: When YOU had your conversation with Mr.,
Thomas, was anybody else present?
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Who
THE WITNESS: Officer Rhonda Smith.
THE COURT: Spell it.
THE WITNESS: R-h-o-n-d-a, Smith, S-m-i-t-h.
THE COURT: Was she -- where was she standing when you had this
conversation?
THE WITNESS: She was standing approximately two feet to my right,
THE COURT: Was she in a position to hear and understand everything
that you said to Mr. Thomas and everything that, he said in response thereto?
THE WITNESS: I believe so, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. What did you say to him,
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and what did he say to you, insofar as you can recall, the exact words?
THE WITNESS: The exact words were -- I told -explained to Mr.
Thomas that even though the avenue was closed to regular vehicular traffic, it
was still a roadway being used by the fire department, ambulance service, and
all of the various police agencies, and we have motorcades on the avenue.
And besides that, he was occupying public space without a permit, and
those were the things that he had --were violating. Mr. Thomas then wanted to
engage in an argument, and I ceased the conversation, told him that I wasn't
going to argue about it.
I tried to be nice about it, and explained to him what was going on, and
why we were asking him to move, and when he refused the lawful order to
move out of the roadway, that is the time that he was placed under arrest.
THE COURT: By whom?
THE WITNESS: By Officer Hebron.
THE COURT: Yes, What happened then
THE WITNESS: Then the wagon came on to Pennsylvania Avenue. We
searched Mr. Thomas Took him to the precinct to process, and two of Mr.
Thomas's friends came out of the park and dragged the structure back into
Lafayette Park.
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THE COURT: Were they male or female? Who were they?
THE WITNESS: I don't know who they were, Your Honor, but it was two
males.
THE COURT: All right, Can you give us the Citation to the code, or the
police regulations that you utilized in arresting Mr. Thomas?
THE WITNESS: I don't know the specific numbers, Your Honor, no.
THE COURT: And what did you say on your complaint, or arresting
documents?
THE WITNESS: The arresting officer prepared the arrest -- the actual
documents themselves. I did not see he was charged with failing to obey the
lawful order under the traffic code, because he was in the street. And we did
not charge him with occupying public space without a permit.
THE COURT: But you could have?
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: And you still could?
THE WITNESS: I don’t know. I would have to seek legal counsel on that
now that it is after the fact. But we did not. I tried very hard to talk to Mr.
Thomas, explain to him what was going on, and why we were doing what we
were doing, but it was to no avail.
THE COURT: Do you have any further questions?
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BY MR, BRENNAN:
Q: Were there any other individuals, Captain, carrying signs in the
street?
A: Yes.
THE COURT: What happened to them, if anything?
THE WITNESS: Nothing, Your Honor.
MR. BRENNAN: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Do you mean that you just arrested Mr. Thomas and let
all of the other people carry signs out there in front of the White House on the
avenue?
THE WITNESS: Well, we can have -- there can be people in the street
carrying signs. We don't have a problem with that, because they can get out of
the street very quickly.
The problem was this large structure that Mr. Thomas had, which would
require two people to pull out of the street, and he was actually occupying
space as opposed to people demonstrating, walking around with their signs.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
MR. BRENNAN: No further questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Does the government have any questions that they want
to ask the Captain?
MR. LAWRENCE: No questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Thomas?
34
MR. THOMAS: A few, Your Honor.