MR. FINNEGAN: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: YOU MAY STEP DOWN. THANK YOU, OFFICER. DO YOU HAVE ANY FURTHER WITNESSES?

MR. FINNEGAN: NO, I DO NOT.

THE COURT: MR. SEMPLE, DO YOU WISH TO TESTIFY OR CALL ANY WITNESSES.

MR. SEMPLE: PHILIP JOSEPH.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. YOU MAY CALL HIM. DO YOU WANT TO PUT THOSE EXHIBITS INTO EVIDENCE?

MR. FINNEGAN: YES, SIR. I WILL MOVE FOR THE ADMISSION OF THE PHOTOGRAPHS.

THE COURT: ANY OBJECTION?

MR. SEMPLE: NO OBJECTTON.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THEY ARE RECEIVED.

THE DEPUTY CLERK: GOVERNMENT'S EXHIBIT NO. 1 RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.

(GOVERNMENT'S EXHIBIT 1
[PHOTOGRAPHS] RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.]

THE DEPUTY CLERK: HAVE A SEAT IN THE BOX, SIR. DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. SEMPLE:

Q. COULD YOU STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE COURT, PLEASE?

A. PHILIP JOSEPH.

Q. HOW LONG HAVE YOU KNOWN ME, PHILIP?

A. ABOUT A YEAR AND THREE-QUARTERS.

Q. YOU HAVE SEEN ME IN LAFAYETTE PARK?

A. YES.

Q. WITH DEMONSTRATION SIGNS?

A. YES.

Q. TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE, DO THE THINGS THAT ARE AT MY DEMONSTRATION SITE ON ANY GIVEN DAY, DO YOU THINK THAT ALL OF THE THINGS THAT ARE THEKE, DO TREY USUALLY BELONG TO ME? COULD THEY BELONG -- MR. FINNEGAN: YOUR HONOR, I KNOW THERE IS A LOT OF LEEWAY FOR A PRO SE, BUT IF A QUESTION COULD BE ASKED AS TO JUST WHAT HE SAW AND WHAT HE HEARD AND WHAT HE WITNESSED, RATHER THAN WHAT HE THINKS?

THE COURT: YES.

MR. SEMPLE: I WAS TRYING TO GET --

THE COURT: I UNDERSTAND. WHY DON'T YOU ASK HIM IF HE KNOWS WHO WERE THE OWNERS OF THE PROPERTY NEAR YOUR DEMONSTRATION SITE; AND THEN IF HE DOES KNOW, ASK HIM WHO OWNS THEM.

MR. SEMPLE: OKAY.

BY MR. SEMPLE:

Q. COULD YOU SAY EXACTLY WHO OWNED, MAYBE, THE STUFF AT MY DEMONSTRATION SITE ON THE DAY OF -- ON OF APRIL 8TH?

THE COURT: WELL, LET'S GET IT STRAIGHT. WERE YOU THERE ON APRIL 8TH WHEN HE WAS ARRESTED?

WITNESS: YES. YES, SIR.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.

THE WITNESS: BUT I BELIEVE IT BELONGS TO WE, THE PEOPLE, SINCE THE WHITE HOUSE IS AN OPEN, PUBLIC FORUM, AND THE PARK IS ALSO AN OPEN PARK. PEOPLE COME ALONG AND BRING ANYTHING. PEOPLE BRING BAGS OF BREAD/ PEOPLE BRING DIFFERENT THINGS, AND THEM SET THEM DOWN. AND, IT BEING AN OPEN FORUM, I SEE PEOPLE COMING THROUGH ALL THE TIME. THIS IS MY OBSERVATION: PEOPLE COMING THROUGH ALL THE TIME, AND THEY LAY STUFF DOWN. AND, BECAUSE THEY LAY STUFF DOWN NEXT TO A DEMONSTRATION SITE, IT DOES NOT MEAN IT IS THAT PERSON'S. AND I DON'T SEE WHERE A PERSON HAS A RIGHT OR OBLIGATION TO MOVE IT, AND IT SEEMS SOMEONE WOULD BE ASKED WHETHER IT WAS THEIRS OR NOT, BEFORE THEY ASSUME IT IS.

BY MR. SEMPLE:

Q. WHAT IS THE USUAL REASON FOR PEOPLE TO LEAVE, SAY, FOOD OR BLANKETS AT THE DEMONSTRATION SITE?

A. THEY USUALLY LEAVE IT THERE. THE HOMELESS PEOPLE OUT 0N THE STREET CARRY THEIR STUFF. THEY COME ALONG, AND THEY LEAVE STUFF, LIKE, AROUND, AND THE REASON TOR IT, I DON'T -- EACH ONE WOULD HAVE THEIR OWN REASON.

Q. HOW ABOUT FOOD; WHY DO PEOPLE BRING FOOD?

A. WELL, PEOPLE EAT.

Q. WELL, THE FOOD IS FOR THE POPULATION IN GENERAL?

A. PEOPLE COME ALONG, AND THEY DO THAT ALL THE TIME. THEY

ALWAYS COME AND EAT.

Q. THANK YOU.

MR. SEMPLE: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.

BY MR. FINNEGAN:

Q. MR. JOSEPH --

A. YES.

Q. -- DO YOU KNOW WHY THIS PARTICULAR AMOUNT OF FOOD WAS RIGHT AT MR. SEMPLE'S SITE, RATHER THAN AT YOUR SITE OR ANYONE ELSE SITE?

A. APPARENTLY, WHOEVER BROUGHT IT JUST SET IT THERE, RATHER THAN SPLITTING IT UP IN DIFFERENT BAGS. IT SEEMS TO ME THEY SAT IT ON THE WHITE HOUSE SIDEWALK.

Q. DID YOU SEE TRESE FOODSTUFFS BEING DELIVERED?

A. YES, I SEE F0OD BROUGHT OUT.

Q. ON THIS PARTICULAR DAY, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT EITHER APRIL 3RD OR APRIL 8TH. I THINK ON THIS OCCASION, ON APRIL 8TH, THE DATE THE PICTURES WERE TAKEN.

A. FROM WHAT I SAW OF THE PHOTOGRAPHS, THE BAG OF FOOD, YES.

Q. DO YOU RECALL WHEN THOSE WERE DELIVERED TO THE SITE?

A. PROBABLY THE EVENING BEFORE, I BELIEVE, THE EVENING BEFORE THESE PICTURES WERE TAKEN.

Q. OKAY. THESE PICTURES, I BELIEVE, WERE TAKEN IN THE LATE AFTERNOON OF THE 8TH OF APRIL; IS THAT YOUR RECOLLECTION?

A. OKAY. IF THE PICTURES WERE TAKEN -- BECAUSE I KNOW THE PEOPLE BKING AROUND THE PASTRIES IN THE EVENING TIME. THEY BRING THEM AROUND THEN.

Q. AND THEY BRING THEM TO MH. SEMPLE AND TO YOU ON OCCASION?

A. WELL, THEY BRING THEM AROUND TO EVERVONE. THEY OFFER THEM TO THE POLICEMEN. THEY OFFER THEM TO PASSERSBY, BUT THEY DO NOT NECESSARILY CARE FOR THEM.

Q. AND THE PERSON WHO GETS THE FOOD ASSUMIES THE RESPONSIBILITY TO DISTRIBUTE IT?

A. I THINK THE PERSON WHO GETS THE FOOD EATS A PIECE OF IT, AND PRETTY WELL GOD OWNS FOOD.

Q. CAN PEOPLE OWN FOOD, MR. JOSEPH?

A. NO I DON'T THINK SO.

Q. THANK YOU.

MR. FINNEGAN: I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.

THE COURT: ANYTHING ELSE, MR. SEMPLE?

MR. SEMPLE: I HAVE ANOTHER WITNESS, BUT I DON'T THINK SHE WAS THERE ON THAT DATE.

THE COURT: I BEG YOUR PARDON?

MR. SEMPLE: I HAVE ANOTHER WITNESS, BUT I DON'T THINK SHE WAS THERE ON THAT DATE.

THE COURT: WELL, JUST PROFFER WHAT YOUR WITNESS WILL TESTIFY COME TO THE MICROPHONE IF SHE WERE CALLED TO THE STAND WHAT WOULD YOU EXPECT HER TO SAY?

MR. SEMPLE: JUST, BASICALLY, THAT MAYBE A LOT OF THE BELONGINGS THAT ARE LEFT AT MY SIGNS DO NOT NECESSARILY BELONG TO ME, AND TNAT FOOD IS -- YOU SEE, WHAT HAPPENS WITH FOOD, SIR, IS THAT PEOPLE DROP IT OFF AT DIFFERENT DEMONSTRATION SITES. WE TRY TO TAKE A LITTLE BIT OF RESPONSIBILITY FOR IT SO IT DOES NOT JUST GET SPREAD ALL OVER TKE PLACE AND, YOU KNOW, TRASH ALL OVER THE PLACE. SO I TRY TO KEEP THE TRASH OFF THE GRASS AND OFF THE GROUND, AND WE COULD JUST PUT THE BAG IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PARK AND JUST LEAVE IT THERE, BUT THEN, YOU KNOW, THE POLICE WILL TAKE IT, OR THIS OR THAT. SO IT IS, LIKE -- WE ARE NOT-- WE, ARE NOT TRYING TO, IN OTHER WORDS, TRASH UP THE AREA. WE ARE JUST TRYING TO HAVE IT AVAILALE. I WOULD JUST EXPECT HER TO SAY THAT: YES, PEOPLE DO DROP OFF FOOD, AND IT IS NOT AT ANY PARTICULAR SITE IN GENERAL, BUT IT IS FOR. ANYONE WHO DESIRES TO EAT.

THE COURT: DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING FURTHER?

MR. SEMPLE: THAT WOULD BE BASICALLY I

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT DO YOU WISH TO TESTIFY? YOU KNOW THAT YOU HAVE A PRIVILEGE TO TESTIFY. YOU ALSO HAVE THE PRIVILEGE TO REMAIN SILENT, WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT YOU KNOW THAT YOU HAVE A PRIVILEGE TO TESTIFY. YOU ALSO HAVE THE PRIVILEGE TO REMAIN SILENT, WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT YOUR SILENCE WILL NOT BE USED AGAINST YOU.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. IT IS YOUR PRIVILEGE. YOU DO NOT CARE TO TESTIFY?

MR. SEMPLE: I WILL. I WILL.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. DO YOU HAVE SOMETMING YOU WANT TO TELL ME ABOUT THIS?

MR. SEMPLE: ABOUT TESTIFYING?

THE COURT: ABOUT THIS CHARGE.

MR. SEMPLE: YES.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. SWEAR THE DEFEKDANT. STEPHEN SEMPLE, A/K/A/ SUNRISE, THE DEFENDANT, SWORN

THE COURT: YOU CAN DO IT RIGHT THERE. WELL, MAYBE YOU HAD BETTER TAKE THE STAND, MR. SEMPLE, SO MR. FINNEGAN CAN CROSS-EXAMINE YOU, IF HE WISHES. NOW, YOU UNDERSTAND YOU HAVE THE PRIVILEGE NOT TO TESTIFY.

THE WITNESS: SURE.

THE COURT: OKAY, SO WHAT DO YOU WANT TO TELL ME ABOUT THIS CHARGE?

THE WITNESS: WELL I DIDN'T REALIZE THAT THERE WERE TWO CITATIONS. I DON'T EVEN RECALL THE ONE AT TWO O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING, BUT, BESIDES THAT, I WOULD SAY THAT THERE'S NOT ANYONE HERE WHO CAN GO TO LAFAYETTE PARK AND NOT HAVE MORE THAN A BLANKET. I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANYONE HERE THAT -- I WILL PUT IT THIS WAY: ANY FOOD THAT I GET DOES NOT BELONG TO ME. IT BELONGS

TO EVERYONE. THERE IS A LOT OF HOMELESS AND HUNGRY PEOPLE IN THIS CITY, AND ANYONE WHO WANTS TO TAKE THE FOOD OUT OF THEIR MOUTHS SHOULD TRY GOING FOR A WEEK WITHOUT EATING BEFORE HEY DO THAT. AND I DO -- I TRY MY BEST TO KEEP A CLEAN DEMONSTRATION SITE. ANYBODY THAT LEAVES BAGS AND THINGS LIKE TWAT, I USUALLY TELL THEM: LOOK, YOU HAVE TO FIND ANOTHER PLACE TO KEEP IT. I CAN'T BE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR STUPF. I AM NOT OUT HERE TO WATCH PEOPLE'S BAGS. I AM OUT HERE TO HOLD A VIGIL. I KEEP THE BARE MINIMUM. I HAVE A GUITAR, A BOOK BAG, AND ONI: OR TWO BLANKETS. I HAVE TO HAVE BLANKETS. I USE THEM DURING THE DAY TO PUT ON THE SIDEWALK, BECAUSE IT IS HARD, AND I SIT ON THEM TO MEDITATE, TALK TO PEOPLE, WHATEVER. AT NIGHT I USE TWO BLANKETS BECAUSE IT GETS COLD SOME NIGHTS. AND I WOULD JUST LIKE TO SAY TO ANYONE WHO THINKS THAT THEY CAN SURVIVE OUT THERE WITH ONE BLANKET. TRY IT.

THE COURT: DOES THAT COMPLETE YOUR TESTIMONY?

SEMPLE: YES, SIR.

THE COURT: DO YOU WISH TO INQUIRE, MR. FINNEGAN?

MR. FINNEGAN: JUST A FEW, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.

MR. SEMPLE, DID YOU HAVE A RAINCOAT ON THE SITE?

A. I DON'T RECALL.

Q. PARDON ME?

A. I DON'T THINK SO.

Q. ALL RIGHT. DID YOU HAVE AN Umbrella ON THE SITE?

A. I MIGHT HAVE HAD ONE STASHED UNDER THE SIGNS.

Q. OKAY. DID YOU HAVE A BLANKET ON THE SITE?

A. I HAD TWO THAT I WAS USING AT THE TIME. IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE INCIDENT WHERE THE OFFICER TOOK THE PICTURES, I HAD TWO.

Q. HOW DO YOU USE THE BLANKETS?

A. I USUALLY PUT ONE UNDERNEATH BECAUSE THE BRICK SIDEWALK IS A LITTLE HARD TO LAY DOWN ON AND ONE OVER TOP.

Q. OKAY. AND WHAT FOODSTUFFS WERE YOURS?

A. LIKE I SAY, NONE OF THE FOOD BELONGS TO ME. I AM ONLY ITS KEEPER. IF I GET FOOD DONATED T0 ME, LIKE THAT BOX OF APPLES, THAT WAS JUST DROPPED OFF BEFORE. SOMEBODY CAME BY IN A STATIONWAGON AND DROPPED OFF THAT BOX OF APPLES, AND THEY ASKED ME TO DISTRIBUTE IT. THEY SEE ME OUT THERE A LOT, AND HE WAS JUST AN AMERICAN CITIZEN WHO SAID: HEY, I HAVE EXTRA APPLES, YOU KNOW.

Q. OKAY. WHAT FOOD DO YOU EAT ON THE SITE?

A. I EAT -- I PARTICIPATE. I EAT WITH EVERYONE ELSE. WHATEVER COMES ALONG FOR EVERYONE, I TAKE A LITTLE BIT HERE AND THERE.

Q. AND DO YOU LEAVE THE PARK?

A. I LEAVE THE PARK A LOT LATELY, MORE THAN I WOULD LIKE TO, ACTUALLY, BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN DOING A LOT OF RESEARCH DOWN AT G.W., AND I PLAY MY MUSIC HEKE AND THERE. WHAT ELSE DO I DO? I COMIE DOWN TO THE COURTHOUSE A LOT, AND I GO UP TO THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS ONCE IN A WHILE.

Q. ALL RIGHT.

A. I TRY TO GET AROUND, I TRY TO STUDY AND DO DIFFERENT THINGS.

Q. YOU RECALL A CONVERSATION YOU HAD WITH MR. HUNTER AFTER THE PROCEEDINGS BEFORE THE COURT IN JANUARY, I BELIEVE IT WAS, OR PERHAPS EVEN IT WAS MARCH?

A. MAYBE YOU COULD REFRESH MY MEMORY ON THAT.

Q. I WILL TRY TO.

A. OKAY.

Q. DO YOU RECALL A CONVERSATION WITH MR. HUNTER ON JANUARY 21, 1983, AT APPROXIMATELY THREE HOURS BEFORE YOU APPEARED BEFORE THIS COURT, IN WHICH YOU INDICATED THAT YOU WOULD NOT COMPLY WITH THE CONDITION TO HAVE ONLY ONE BLANKET; AND THAT YOU DID NOT INTEND TO LEAVE THE PARK FOR EACH 24-HOUR PERIOD FOR BATHING AND PERSONAL MAINTENANCE? DO YOU RECALL THAT CONVERSATION, OR DID YOU MAKE THAT STATE- MENT?

A. NO.

Q. ALL RIGHT. CORRECT ME AND PLEASE LET US KNOW WHAT YOU TOLD MR. H1UNTER THAT DAY?

A. NOW, I AM NOT SURE OF THE DATE OR THE TIME, BUT I KNOW THAT, AFTER I LEFT THIS COURTROOM, I WENT BACK TO THE PARK. WHEN THE PROBATION CONDITTONS WERE IMPOSED ON ME, I WENT BACK TO THE PARK. I WAS THERE FOH A WHLE, AND I DECIDED THAT THERE IS NO WAY THAT I COULD STAY OUT THERE WITH ONLY ONE BLANKET. SO I CALLED MR. HUNTER AND TOLD HIM THAT THERE WAS NO WAY THAT I COULD STAY OUT THERE WITH ONE BLANKET, AND I DID NOT BELIEVE THAT LEAVING THE PARK EVERY DAY FOR FIVE HOURS WAS CONSTITUTIONAL. I TOLD HIM THAT I WOULD LIKE TO BRING THAT UP, MAYBE, AGAIN BEFORE JUDGE OBERDORFER TO SEE IF HE WOULD -- WHATEVER HE WOULD LIKE TO DO ABOUT THAT. NOW, THEN, AS FAR AS LEAVING THE PARK FOR BATHING AND CLEANING, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT T HAVE ALWAYS DONE SINCE I HAVE BEEN THERE. I ALWAYS LEAVE THE PARK TO TAKE SHOWERS, WASH CLOTHES, CLEAN THINGS. I AM NOT USING THE PARK FOR A A PLACE TO LIVE. I AM USING THE PARK AS A PLACE TO DEOMNSTRATE MY LIFESTYLE. SO THAT THERE'S A VERY IMPORTANT -- A FINE LINE THERE. ME, I WOULD SAY -- I WOULD SPEND 20 HOURS A WEEK OUT OF THE PARK FMAINTENANCE OF BODY, THINGS LIKE THAT. OTHERWISE, I TRY TO STAY IN THE PARK TO COMMUNICATE.

I HAVE SIGNS. I PLAY MY MUSIC, PASS OUT LITERATURE, TALK TO PEOPLE, WHATEVER THE CASE MAY BE.

Q. ALL RIGHT. SINCE THAT CONVERSATION WITH MR. HUNTER, WHAT PORTIONS OF THE COURT'S ORDER COULD YOU NOT FOLLOW BECAUSE YOU FELT THAT IT WAS INFRINGING ON YOUR RIGHTS?

A. WELL, I WOULD SAY THAT NOT HAVING MORE THAN ONE BLANKET IS INFRINGING ON MY RIGHTS. I THINK THAT IS ABSOLUTELY RIDIC- LOUS. NO ONE POSSIBLY CAN GO OUT THERE AND SPEND A WINTER OUT IN LAFAYETTE PARK, OR EVEN THE SPRING AND FALL, WITH ONLY ONE BLANKET. AS FAR AS THE FIVE HOURS GOING OUT OF TH5 PARK, I DON'T SEE ANY REASON FOR THAT. NOW, IF THE COURT STILL SEES A REASON FOR THAT AND THEY WANT TO ENFORCE THAT, I HAVE BEEN PRETTY MUCH LEAVING TH5 PARK FOR FIVE HOURS A DAY, ANYWAY, BUT ONLY BECAUSE I HAVE OTHER THINGS TO 30. I STILL THINK THAT, ON PRINCIPLE, IT IS AN UNCONSTITUTIONAL ORDER, AND I WOULD ASK THE JUDGE TO RECONSIDER THAT CONDITION.

Q. ALL RIGHT. WHAT OTHER PORTIONS OF THS COURT'S ORDER DO YOU FEEL THAT YOU SHOULDN'T COMPLY WITH? ANYTHING ELSE?

A. WELL, I SHOULDN'T COMPLY WITH? IT IS MORE LIKE WHAT IS REASONABLE AND WHAT IS UNREASONABLE

Q. WHAT DO YOU THINK IS UNREASONABLE ABOUT THE COURT'S ORDER.

OTHER THAN WHAT VOU HAVE ALREADY NOTED TO THE COURT?

A. I WOULD SAY THOSE ARE THE BASIC THINGS. I MEAN I MAY NOT TO HAVE, YOU KNOW, TOO MUCH STUFF THERE ANYWAY, BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE TO BE CONCERNED WITH A LOT OF STUFF THERE.

Q. WHERE DO YOU SLEEP? DO YOU SLEEP ANYWHERE OTHER THAN IN THE PARK?

A. SOMETIMES I --A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO, I WENT OUT TO A FRIEND'S HOUSE AND SLEPT THERE FOR A FEW DAYS. SO ONCE IN A WHILE, I DO. I TRY TO GET SOMEWHERE WHERE I CAN GET SOME QUIET RELIEF, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE THERE IS CONSTANT NOISE RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF THE WHITE HOUSE. SO IT IS NOT A PLACE WHERE I WOULD GO TO GET A NAP OR SLEEP AT ALL.

Q. MAYBE YOU HAVE ALREADY ANSWERED THIS QUESTION, BUT IN A MONTH'S TIME, COULD YOU ESTIMATE HOW OFTEN, OR HOW MANY HOURS, YOU WOULD LEAVE THE PARK?

A. IT IS HARD TO SAY. EVERY DAY IS DIFFERENT. SOME DAVS, LIKE YESTERDAY, I WAS OUT OR THE PARK ALL DAY, BECAUSE I WENT TO THE LIBRARY AND WENT DOWN TO THE COURTHOUSE. AROUND A LOT. BUT SOME DAYS I STAY THERE ALL DAY LONG. IT IS A QUESTION OF, YOU KNOW, THAT I DON'T HAVE A SET PROGRAM THAT I FOLLOW. I DO WHATEVER I NEED TO DO THAT DAY, AND IF IT MEANS BEING IN THE PARK OR OUT OF THE PARK, I DO THAT. THANK YOU.

MR. FINNEGAN: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE YOU WANT TO SAY?

THE WITNESS: NOT THAT I CAN THINK OF, SIR.

THE COURT: MH. SEMPLE, YOU SAY THAT YOU HAVE BEEN LEAVING THE PARK OFF AND ON, NOT NECESSARILY FIVE HOURS A DAY, BUT, OVER A WEEK, IT WOULD COME OUT TO AN AVERAGE OF FIVE HOURS A DAY?

THE WITNESS: I WOULD SAY SO. I WOULD SAY THAT I USE ABOUT 20 HOURS A WEEK FOR WASHING CLOTHES, TAKING SHOWERS, AND THINGS LIKE THAT, WHICH I CAN'T DO IN THE PARK, ANYWAY. I WOULD NOT REALLY NECESSARILY WANT TO, UNLESS THERE WAS A BATHHOUSE THERE, BUT THERE IS NOT. SO I HAVE NO PROBLEMS.

THE COURT: SUPPOSE THE OHDER REQUIRED YOU TO SPEND 35 HOURS A WEEK, THAT IS, AN AVERAGE OF FIVE HOURS A DAY, OUT OF THE PARK. COULD YOU COMPLY WITH THAT WITHOUT CAUSING THE POLICE ALL OF THIS TROUBLE? THE WITNESS: I CAN COMPLY WITH IT, BUT ARE THE POLICE GOING TO MONITOR THAT?

THE COURT: WELL, SOMEBODY IS, OR SOMEBODY COULD. YOU COULD.

THE WITNESS: SIR, I COULD, AND I CAN DO THAT, I STILL DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THERE IS ANY LAW SAYING THAT. THE COURT THE PROBLEM, MR. SEMPLE, IS AS YOU SAID, THAT THERE IS A FINEZ LINE. THESE OFFICERS ARE PART OF THE COUNTRY, TOO.

THE WITNESS: RIGHT

THE COURT: AND IF THEY WERE NOT THERE, OR IF SOMEBODY

LIKE THEM WERE NOT THERE, PEOPLE GET KILLED AND SHOT ALL OVER THE PLACE. YOU MIGHT BE ONE OF THEM.

THE WITNESS: WELL, I --

THE COURT: LET ME FTNISH. THEY PERFORM A ROLE. THEY HAVE A DUTY TO ENFORCE A REGULATION TNAT SAYS THAT THERE SHOULD BE NO CAMPING. YOU HAVE A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO DEMONSTRATE IN THE PARK. THERE HAS TO BE SOMEWHERE THAT A LINE CAN BE DRAWN THAT IS CONSISTENT WITH YOUR EXERCISE OF YOUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT AND THAT WILL ALSO RELIEVE THESE GENTLEMENT CF THE NEED TO BOTHER YOU BECAUSE THEY ARE ENFORCING THIS REGULATION. THEY HAVE -- IT IS THEIR JOB. THAT IS THE LAW, AND THE CONSTITUTION IS LAW. NOW, YOU SAY THAT IT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL TO REQUIRE YOU TO BE OUT OF THE PARK ANY PARTICULAR LENGTH OF TIME. THE REASON THAT IT IS DONE IS IN ORDER TO CONFORM YOUR EXERCISE OF YOUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO THE PUBLIC'S CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO PROTECT THE PARK FROM CAMPING YOU DO NOT QUESTION THE RIGHT OF THE GOVERNMENT TO PREVENT CAMPING IN THE PARK.

THE WITNESS: WELL, I QUESTION THE RIGHT OF THE GOVERNMENT, THE GOVERNMENT'S RIGHT, TO MAKE ANY LAWS AT ALL.

THE COURT: THEN YOU HAVE TO GO TO JAIL. ALL RIGHT.

THE WITNESS: I DON'T MEAN THAT I WOULD FIGHT THAT ON A PHYSICAL LEVEL, BUT I WOULD JUST SAY ON A SPIRITUAL LEVEL.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.

THE WITNESS: BECAUSE I BELIEVE THAT GOD MAKES THE LAWS, BUT I AM NOT SAYING THAT T AM NOT WILLING TO COMFORM TO THE GOVERNMENT'S --

THE COURT: WELL, THE LAW PROHIBITS CAMPING

THE WITNESS: YES, SIR, I AM WILLING TO DEAL WITH THAT.

THE COURT: THE LAW PROTECTS YOUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO DEMONSTRATE. THE LAW IS THE COSSTITUTTON AND THE --

THE WITNESS: RIGHT.

THE COURT: -- AND THE CONSTITUTION IS THE LAW.

THE WITNESS: OKAY. THE WAY IT STANDS, YES, SIR, I AGREE WITH THAT.

THE COURT: NOW, THERE MUST BE SOME WAY TO SATISFY YOUR NEED, YOUR LEGITIMATE NEED TO DEMONSTRATE, AND TO SATISFY THE LEGITIMATE OBLIGATIONS OF THE POLICE AND THE PROSECUTORS TO CARRY OUT THEIR OBLIGATION TO THE LAW THAT THERE BE N0 CAMPING IN THE PARK. NOW, I DESIGNED A FORMULA AND TRIED IT ON YOU AS AN EXPERIMENT THAT WOULD ENABLE THEM TO SATISFY THEMSELVES THAT, WHILE YOU ARE DEMONSTRATING, YOU ARE NOT CAMPING. NOW, TO DO THAT, I PICKED OUT SOME ITEMS WHICH WERE IN MY MIND, BADGES OF CAMPING AND SOME OTHER ITEMS THAT WERE APPROPRIATE FOR A LONG DEMONSTRATION. I HAVE TRIED TO PUT ONE ON ONE SIDE AND ONE ON THE OTHER.

NOW, IF YOU WERE TO STAY IN THE PARK FOR 24 HOURS A DAY, SEVEN DAYS A WEEK, WHICH YOU DO NOT, IT WOULD BE HARD TO SAY THAT YOU WERE NOT CAMPING. NOW, YOU REPRESENTED IN YOUR PERMIT APPLICATION, AND THE PERMIT WAS GRANTED ON THE REPRESENTATION, THAT YOU WOULD LEAVE THE PARK, AS YOU SAID, TO WASH, TO LAUNDER YOUR CLOTHES, TO PREPARE FOOD, TO STORE PERSONAL PROPERTY AND PERFORM AND I AM QUOTING -- ELEMENTARY AND OTHER BIOLOGICAL BODY FUNCTIONS.

THE WITNESS: THAT IS CORRECT.

THE COURT: AND YOU HAVE TESTIFIED THAT YOU DO THAT AND THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TMAT YOU DO NOT. YOU HAVE ALSO TESTIFIED THAT, FOR OTHER REASONS YOU LEAVE THE PARK. YOU HAVE INDICATED THAT THE FIRST ASPECT OF IT CONSUMES ABOUT 20 HOURS A WEEK.

THE WITNESS: YES, I WOULD SAY THE BODILY FUNCTIONS.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. AND THE OTHER THINGS CONSUME SOME MORE TIME.

THE WITNESS: I WOULD SAY 15, MAYBE MORE.

THE COURT: SO THAT IS 35. NOW, YOU TELL ME. I AM TRYING TO BALANCE THIS THING. I AM NOT TRYING TO USE A MEAT AXE HERE.

THE WITNESS: RIGHT. I UNDERSTAND.

THE COURT: DO YOU HAVE ANY REASON TO BELIEVE --

YOUR CONSCIENCE, IN THE FIRST INSTANCE, WOULD BE YOUR GUIDE THAT YOU COULD NOT COMPLY WITH AN ORDER THAT SAYS THAT YOU WOULD BE ABSENT FROM THE PARK 35 NOURS OUT OF EACH WEEK FOR THESE PURPOSES, OR ANY OTHER PURPOSE?

THE WITNESS: I WOULD SAY THAT THAT IS THE CASE.

THE COURT: SO WHAT IS IMPRACTICAL ABOUT THAT?

THE WITNESS: I JUST, ON PRINCIPLE, I JUST QUESTION THE PRINCIPALITY OF IT.

THE COURT: LET'S SEE, NOW. TO TEST THE IDEA OF YOUR PRINCIPLE, THE PRINCIPLE IS THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO DEMON- STRATE. YOU SEE WHAT YOU DO? WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS THIS,

MR. SEMPLE: THS EASY WAY TO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM IS TO PUT YOU IN JAIL. YOU DO NOT DEMONSTRATE IN JAIL. THAT IS, YOU DO NOT DEMONSTRATE IN LAFAYETTE PARK WHEN YOU ARE IN JAIL. HOWEVER, THERE OUGHT TO BE SOME WAY SHORT OF THAT TO CAUSE YOU "O COMPLY WITH THE LAW AND STILL DEMONSTRATE.

THE WITNESS: I AM TRYING TO COMPLY WITH THE SIR.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WELL, NOW, THE LAW HAS BEEN THAT YOU WOULD BE OUT OF THE PARK FIVE HOURS A DAY. YOU CLAIM CONSCIENTIOUSLY THAT THAT IS A VIOLATION OF YOUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS. YOU ALSO SAY THAT YOU ARE OUT OF THE PARK 35 HOURS

THE WITNESS: YES, SIR

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. AND OF ALL OF THE CLOTHING ITEMS THAT YOU WERE DEPRIVED, IT IS THE ONE BLANKET THAT HAS CAUSED THE MOST GRIEF:

THE WITNESS: THAT 1S THE BIGGEST PROBLEM.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, MR. SEMPLE. YOU MAY STEP DOWN.

MR. FINNEGAN: IF I MAY, YOUR HONOR, I JUST HAVE

THE COURT: YES, GO AHEAD. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. FINNEGAN:

Q. MR. SEMPLE, WHAT FORMS OF AUTHORITY DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT COULD MAKE YOU DO WHAT THE AUTHORITY ASKS YOU TO DO?

A. WELL, I THINK REASON WOULD BE ONE.

Q. AS DEFINED BY --

A. AS DEFISED BY ALL INDIVIDUALS WORKING FOR THE COMMON WELFARE OF EVERYONE. YOU WOULD RECOGNIZE AUTHORITY THAT AGREES WITH WHAT YOU BELIEVE IS REASONABLE?

A. NO, SIR. I WOULD FOLLOW THE AUTHORITY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Q. ALL RIGHT.

THE COURT: MR. FINNEGAN, THIS IS GETTING THEOLOGICAL

THE WITNESS: EXCUSE ME, SIR?

MR. FINNEGAN: MY POSITTON IS THAT MR. SEMPLE DOES NOT RECOGNIZE AUTHORITY BEYOND HIMSELF.

THE COURT: WELL, I THINK THAT WHAT HE IS SAYING IS THAT HE THINKS THE AUTHORITY OF REASON -

MR. FINNEGAN: AS DEFINED BY HIMSELF.

THE COURT: THIS IS GETTING LIKE DARROW AND --

MR. FINNEGAN: IT IS ENTERTAINING, AT LEAST, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: NO.

THE WITNESS: MR. FINNEGAN, MAY I PLEASE --

THE COURT: THIS IS DETERIORATING, GENTLEMEN. I WILL CUT YOU OFF, MR. FINNEGAN. I DON'T NEED TO HEAR ANY MORE,

MR. SEMPLE.

THE WITNESS: YES, SIR.

THE COURT: THANK YOU. YOU MAY STEP DOWN AND COME TO THE PODIUM, MR. SEMPLE. I AM GOING TO MODIFY, AND I WILL DO IT IN WRITING, MY ORDER THAT WAS FILED FEBRUARY 11TH, IN TERMS OF ITS REQUIREMENTS AS TO THE THINGS THAT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO HAVE IN YOUR POSSESSION, AND NOT HAVE IN YOUR POSSESSION, IN THE PARK. I AM GOING TO CHANGE THAT TO REQUIRE YOU, AS A CONDITION OF PROBATION, TO CONFORM TO THE UNDERTAKING THAT YOU MADE WHEN YOU APPLIED FOR A PERMIT, WHICH WAS GRANTED. MR. SEMPLE: YES, SIR.

THE COURT: IN LIEU OF THE REQUIREMENT THAT YOU REMOVE YOURSELF FROM THE PARK FOR FIVE CONSECUTIVE HOURS EVERY 24 HOURS, I AM GOING TO REQUIRE THAT YOU REMOVE YOURSELF

FROM THE PARK FOR A TOTAL OF 35 HOURS EACH WEEK. NOW, I AM NOT GOING TO MAKE IT AN EXPRESS REQUIREMENT OF THE WRITTEN ORDER, BUT I SUGGEST TO YOU -- COULD YOU KEEP PENCIL AND PAPER IN THE PARK?

MR. SEMPLE: OH, YES. THE COURT: (CONTINUING PREVIOUS STATEMENT) -- THAT YOU KEEP A RECORD, FOR YOUR OWN PROTECTION, OF WHEN YOU ARE OUT OF THE PARK AND WHEN YOU ARE NOT.

MR. SEMPLE: I AM JUST TRYING TO MAKE MY LIFE SIMPLE.

THE COURT: WELL, THAT IS NOT HARD. YOU DO NOT VIOLATE PROBATION BY FAILING TO DO THAT. THAT IS JUST A SUGGESTION.

MR. SEMPLE: JUST FOR MY OWN RECORD?

THE COURT: FOR YOUR OWN RECORD, IN CASE SOMEBODY QUARRELS WITH YOU ABOUT WHETHER YOU ARE OUT OR NOT OUT.

MR. SEMPLE: ALL RIGHT.

THE COURT: NOW, I AM TAKING THIS UNDER ADVISEMENT, AND, MR. FINNEGAN, I WILL BE GLAD TO HEAR YOU ON THIS, EITHER NOW OR AT ANOTHER TIME, THIS MATTER NOW PENDING APPEAL, WHETHER I NEED TO HAVE IT REMANDED TO ME TO PERFECT THE RECORD BY FILING AN EXPLANATION OF MY JUDGMENT AFFIRMING THE CONVICTION.

MR. FINNEGAN: I WOULD BELIEVE THAT YOUR HONOR REALLY HAS NO AUTHORITY TO DO ANY OFFICIAL ACT AT THIS POINT,

SIR.

THE COURT: I UNDERSTAND, BUT I CAN REQUEST THE COURT OF APPEALS TO REMAND IT.

MR. FINNEGAN: YES. I WOULD SUGGEST THAT IT WOULD HAVE TO BE DONE IN ORDER FOR YOUR HONOR TO TAKE ANY OTHER ACTION, OTHER THAN THE TAKING OF EVIDENCE ON THIS PARTICULAR DAY.

THE COURT: I UNDERSTAND THAT. THE QUESTION IS WHETHER YOU HAVE A POSITION WITH RESPECT TO MY OBLIGATION -- MAYBE IT IS JUST MY OBLIGATION TO MYSELF -- TO APPLY TO THE COURT OF APPEALS TO REMAND THE MATTER.

MR. FINNEGAN: I WOULD ONLY POINT OUT THAT AT THE TIME WHEN YOUR HONOR AFFIRMED THE CONVICTION BY MAGISTRATE BURNETT, YOU SAW NO REASON FOR A CHANGE OF --

THE COURT: I UNDERSTAND THAT.

MR. FINNEGAN: SO I WOULD AGREE THAT AN EXPLANATION WOULD COMPLETE THE RECORD, AND YOUR HONOR SHOULD STRIVE TO DO THAT.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU.

MR. FINNEGAN: YES, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: THANK YOU, MR. FINNEGAN. I WANT TO SAY TO YOU AND TO THE OFFICERS THAT I DON'T FIND THIS EASY.

MR. FINNEGAN: IT IS NOT AN EASY --

THE COURT: THIS IS NOT LAW ENFORCEMENT, THIS

IS SOMETHING ELSE, AND I AM SYMPATHETIC WITH THEM, AS I AM WITH YOU, AND I HOPE YOU ALL ARE WITH ME. MR. FINNEGAN: YOUR HONOR, YOUR EFFORTS ARE MAGNIFICENT THE COURT'S PATIENCE HAS BEEN DEMONSTRATED OVER AND OVER. THE COURT: MR. SEMPLE, I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND -- AND THIS IS NOT A THREAT; I AM NOT SAYING THIS AS A THREAT I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT WHAT I AM TRYING TO DO IS AN ALTERNATIVE TO WHAT WOULD NORMALLY BE THE RESULT IN A CASE LIKE YOURS, NAMELY, INCARCERATION.

MR. SEMPLE: YES. I HAVE ALREADY BEEN INCARCERATED ONCE.

THE COURT: AND I DO NOT THINK ANYBODY IN THIS ROOM BELIEVES THAT IS IN ORDER, UNLESS YOU MAKE IT DIFFICULT OR IMPOSSIBLE TO DESIGN AND CARRY OUT AN ALTERNATIVE. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

MR. SEMPLE: YES, SIR.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.

MR. SEMPLE: EXCUSE ME. WOULD YOU BE OFFENDED IF WE MAYBE CHALLENGED THE -- I KNOW WE HAVE ALREADY DISCUSSED IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN -- LEAVING THE PARK, IF WE CHALLENGED IT?

THE COURT: WHETHER YOU OFFEND ME OR NOT IS IMMATERIAL IT IS WHETHER YOU VIOLATE THE LAW.

(WHEREUPON, THE COURT ADJOURNED THE HEARING AT 11:OS O'CLOCK A. M.)

I, THOMAS DOURIAN, CERTIFY THAT THE FOREGOING IS THE OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT OF THE PROCEEDINGS IN THE ABOVE- ENTITLED MATTER; AND THAT IT IS COMPLETE AND ACCURATE, TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE AND ABILITY.

OFFICIAL REPORTER
(signed)

MR. FINNEGAN: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: YOU MAY STEP DOWN. THANK YOU, OFFICER. DO YOU HAVE ANY FURTHER WITNESSES?

MR. FINNEGAN: NO, I DO NOT.

THE COURT: MR. SEMPLE, DO YOU WISH TO TESTIFY OR CALL ANY WITNESSES.

MR. SEMPLE: PHILIP JOSEPH.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. YOU MAY CALL HIM. DO YOU WANT TO PUT THOSE EXHIBITS INTO EVIDENCE?

MR. FINNEGAN: YES, SIR. I WILL MOVE FOR THE ADMISSION OF THE PHOTOGRAPHS.

THE COURT: ANY OBJECTION?

MR. SEMPLE: NO OBJECTTON.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THEY ARE RECEIVED.

THE DEPUTY CLERK: GOVERNMENT'S EXHIBIT NO. 1 RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.

(GOVERNMENT'S EXHIBIT 1
[PHOTOGRAPHS] RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.] THE DEPUTY CLERK: HAVE A SEAT IN THE BOX, SIR. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SEMPLE: Q. COULD YOU STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE COURT, PLEASE? A. PHILIP JOSEPH. Q. HOW LONG HAVE YOU KNOWN ME, PHILIP?

A. ABOUT A YEAR AND THREE-QUARTERS.

Q. YOU HAVE SEEN ME IN LAFAYETTE PARK?

A. YES.

Q. WITH DEMONSTRATION SIGNS?

A. YES.

Q. TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE, DO THE THINGS THAT ARE AT MY DEMONSTRATION SITE ON ANY GIVEN DAY, DO YOU THINK THAT ALL OF THE THINGS THAT ARE THEKE, DO TREY USUALLY BELONG TO ME? COULD THEY BELONG -- MR. FINNEGAN: YOUR HONOR, I KNOW THERE IS A LOT OF LEEWAY FOR A PRO SE, BUT IF A QUESTION COULD BE ASKED AS TO JUST WHAT HE SAW AND WHAT HE HEARD AND WHAT HE WITNESSED, RATHER THAN WHAT HE THINKS?

THE COURT: YES.

MR. SEMPLE: I WAS TRYING TO GET --

THE COURT: I UNDERSTAND. WHY DON'T YOU ASK HIM IF HE KNOWS WHO WERE THE OWNERS OF THE PROPERTY NEAR YOUR DEMON- STRATION SITE; AND THEN IF HE DOES KNOW, ASK HIM WHO OWNS THEM.

MR. SEMPLE: OKAY.

BY MR. SEMPLE:

Q. COULD YOU SAY EXACTLY WHO OWNED, MAYBE, THE STUFF AT MY DEMONSTRATION SITE ON THE DAY OF -- ON OF APRIL 8TH?

THE COURT: WELL, LET'S GET IT STRAIGHT. WERE YOU THERE ON APRIL 8TH WHEN HE WAS ARRESTED?

WITNESS: YES. YES, SIR.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.

THE WITNESS: BUT I BELIEVE IT BELONGS TO WE, THE PEOPLE, SINCE THE WHITE HOUSE IS AN OPEN, PUBLIC FORUM, AND THE PARK IS ALSO AN OPEN PARK. PEOPLE COME ALONG AND BRING ANYTHING. PEOPLE BRING BAGS OF BREAD/ PEOPLE BRING DIFFERENT THINGS, AND THEM SET THEM DOWN. AND, IT BEING AN OPEN FORUM, I SEE PEOPLE COMING THROUGH ALL THE TIME. THIS IS MY OBSERVATION: PEOPLE COMING THROUGH ALL THE TIME, AND THEY LAY STUFF DOWN. AND, BECAUSE THEY LAY STUFF DOWN NEXT TO A DEMONSTRATION SITE, IT DOES NOT MEAN IT IS THAT PERSON'S. AND I DON'T SEE WHERE A PERSON HAS A RIGHT OR OBLIGATION TO MOVE IT, AND IT SEEMS SOMEONE WOULD BE ASKED WHETHER IT WAS THEIRS OR NOT, BEFORE THEY ASSUME IT IS.

BY MR. SEMPLE:

Q. WHAT IS THE USUAL REASON FOR PEOPLE TO LEAVE, SAY, FOOD OR BLANKETS AT THE DEMONSTRATION SITE?

A. THEY USUALLY LEAVE IT THERE. THE HOMELESS PEOPLE OUT 0N THE STREET CARRY THEIR STUFF. THEY COME ALONG, AND THEY LEAVE STUFF, LIKE, AROUND, AND THE REASON TOR IT, I DON'T -- EACH ONE WOULD HAVE THEIR OWN REASON.

Q. HOW ABOUT FOOD; WHY DO PEOPLE BRING FOOD?

A. WELL, PEOPLE EAT.

Q. WELL, THE FOOD IS FOR THE POPULATION IN GENERAL?

A. PEOPLE COME ALONG, AND THEY DO THAT ALL THE TIME. THEY

ALWAYS COME AND EAT.

Q. THANK YOU.

MR. SEMPLE: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.

BY MR. FINNEGAN:

Q. MR. JOSEPH --

A. YES.

Q. -- DO YOU KNOW WHY THIS PARTICULAR AMOUNT OF FOOD WAS RIGHT AT MR. SEMPLE'S SITE, RATHER THAN AT YOUR SITE OR ANYONE ELSE SITE?

A. APPARENTLY, WHOEVER BROUGHT IT JUST SET IT THERE, RATHER THAN SPLITTING IT UP IN DIFFERENT BAGS. IT SEEMS TO ME THEY SAT IT ON THE WHITE HOUSE SIDEWALK.

Q.DID YOU SEE TRESE FOODSTUFFS BEING DELIVERED?

A. YES, I SEE F0OD BROUGHT OUT.

Q. ON THIS PARTICULAR DAY, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT EITHER APRIL 3RD OR APRIL 8TH. I THINK ON THIS OCCASION, ON APRIL 8TH, THE DATE THE PICTURES WERE TAKEN.

A. FROM WHAT I SAW OF THE PHOTOGRAPHS, THE BAG OF FOOD, YES.

Q. DO YOU RECALL WHEN THOSE WERE DELIVERED TO THE SITE?

A. PROBABLY THE EVENING BEFORE, I BELIEVE, THE EVENING BEFORE THESE PICTURES WERE TAKEN.

Q. OKAY. THESE PICTURES, I BELIEVE, WERE TAKEN IN THE LATE AFTERNOON OF THE 8TH OF APRIL; IS THAT YOUR RECOLLECTION?

A. OKAY. IF THE PICTURES WERE TAKEN -- BECAUSE I KNOW THE PEOPLE BKING AROUND THE PASTRIES IN THE EVSNING TIME. THEY BRING THEM AROUND THEN.

Q. AND THEY BRING THEM TO MH. SEMPLE AND TO YOU ON OCCASION?

A. WELL, THEY BRING THEM AROUND TO EVERVONE. THEY OFFER THEM TO THE POLICEMEN. THEY OFFER THEM TO PASSERSBY, BUT THEY DO NOT NECESSARILY CARE FOR THEM.

Q. AND THE PERSON WHO GETS THE FOOD ASSUMIES THE RESPONSIBILITY TO DISTRIBUTE IT?

A. I THINK THE PERSON WHO GETS THE FOOD EATS A PIECE OF IT, AND PRETTY WELL GOD OWNS FOOD.

Q. CAN PEOPLE OWN FOOD, MR. JOSEPH?

A.NO I DON'T THINK SO.

Q. THANK YOU.

MR. FINNEGAN: I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.

THE COURT: ANYTHING ELSE, MR. SEMPLE?

MR. SEMPLE: I HAVE ANOTHER WITNESS, BUT I DON'T THINK SHE WAS THERE ON THAT DATE.

THE COURT: I BEG YOUR PARDON?

MR. SEMPLE: I HAVE ANOTHER WITNESS, BUT I DON'T THINK SHE WAS THERE ON THAT DATE.

THE COURT: WELL, JUST PROFFER WHAT YOUR WITNESS WILL TESTIFY COME TO THE MICROPHONE IF SHE WERE CALLED TO THE STAND WHAT WOULD YOU EXPECT HER TO SAY?

MR. SEMPLE: JUST, BASICALLY, THAT MAYBE A LOT OF THE BELONGINGS THAT ARE LEFT AT MY SIGNS DO NOT NECESSARILY BELONG TO ME, AND TNAT FOOD IS -- YOU SEE, WHAT HAPPENS WITH FOOD, SIR, IS TIIAT PEOPLE DROP IT OFF AT DIFFERENT DEMONSTRATION SITES. WE TRY TO TAKE A LITTLE BIT OF RESPONSIBILITY FOR IT SO IT DOES NOT JUST GET SPREAD ALL OVER TKE PLACE AND, YOU KNOW, TRASH ALL OVER THE PLACE. SO I TRY TO KEEP THE TRASH OFF THE GRASS AND OFF THE GROUND, AND WE COULD JUST PUT THE BAG IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PARK AND JUST LEAVE IT THERE, BUT THEN, YOU KNOW, THE POLICE WILL TAKE IT, OR THIS OR THAT. SO IT IS, LIKE -- WE ARE NOT-- WE, ARE NOT TRYING TO, IN OTHER WORDS, TRASH UP THE AREA. WE ARE JUST TRYING TO HAVE IT AVAILALE. I WOULD JUST EXPECT HER TO SAY THAT: YES, PEOPLE DO DROP OFF FOOD, AND IT IS NOT AT ANY PARTICULAR SITE IN GENERAL, BUT IT IS FOR. ANYONE WHO DESIRES TO EAT. THE COURT: DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING FURTHER? MR. SEMPLE: THAT WOULD BE BASICALLY I THE COURT: ALL RIGHT DO YOU WISH TO TESTIFY? YOU KNOW THAT YOU HAVE A PRIVILEGE TO TESTIFY. YOU ALSO HAVE THE PRIVILEGE TO REMAIN SILENT, WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT YOU KNOW THAT YOU HAVE A PRIVILEGE TO TESTIFY. YOU ALSO HAVE THE PRIVILEGE TO REMAIN SILENT, WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT YOUR SILENCE WILL NOT BE USED AGAINST YOU. THE COURT ALL RIGHT. IT IS YOUR PRIVILEGE. YOU DO NOT CARE TO TESTIFY? MR. SEMPLE: I WILL. I WILL. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. DO YOU HAVE SOMETMING YOU WANT TO TELL ME ABOUT THIS? MR. SEMPLE: ABOUT TESTIFYING? THE COURT: ABOUT THIS CHARGE. MR. SEMTLE: YES. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. SWEAR THE DEFEKDANT. STEPHEN SEMPLE, A/K/A/ SUNRISE, THE DEFENDANT, SWORN THZ COURT: YOU CAN DO IT RIGHT THERE. WELL, MAYBE YOU HAD BETTER TAKE THE STAND, MR. SEMPLE, SO MR. FINNEGAN CAN CROSS-EXAMINE YOU, IF HE WISHES. NOW, YOU UNDERSTAND YOU HAVE THE PRIVILEGE NOT TO TESTIFY. THE WITNESS: SURE. THE COURT: OKAY, SO WHAT DO YOU WANT TO TELL ME ABOUT THIS CHARGE? THE WITNESS: WELL I DIDN'T REALIZE THAT THERE WERE TWO CITATIONS. I DON'T EVEN RECALL THE ONE AT TWO O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING, BUT, BESIDES THAT, I WOULD SAY THAT THERE'S NOT ANYONE HERE WHO CAN GO TO LAFAYETTE PARK AND NOT HAVE MORE THAN A BLANKET. I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANYONE HERE THAT -- I WILL PUT IT THIS WAY: ANY FOOD THAT I GET DOES NOT BELONG TO ME. IT BELONGS

THE COURT: DOES THAT COMPLETE YOUR TESTIMONY?

SEMPLE: YES, SIR.

THE COURT: DO YOU WISH TO INQUIRE, MR. FINNEGAN?

MR. FINNEGAN: JUST A FEW, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.

A. I DON'T RECALL.

Q. PARDON ME?

A. I DON'T THINK SO.

Q. ALL RIGHT. DID YOU HAVE AN Umbrella ON THE SITE?

A. I MIGHT HAVE HAD ONE STASHED UNDER THE SIGNS.

Q. OKAY. DID YOU HAVE A BLANKET ON THE SITE?

A. I HAD TWO THAT I WAS USING AT THE TIME. IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE INCIDENT WHERE THE OFFICER TOOK THE PICTURES, I HAD TWO.

Q. HOW DO YOU USE THE BLANKETS?

A. I USUALLY PUT ONE UNDERNEATH BECAUSE THE BRICK SIDEWALK IS A LITTLE HARD TO LAY DOWN ON AND ONE OVER TOP.

Q. OKAY. AND WHAT FOODSTUFFS WERE YOURS?

A. LIKE I SAY, NONE OF THE FOOD BELONGS TO ME. I AM ONLY ITS KEEPER. IF I GET FOOD DONATED T0 ME, LIKE THAT BOX OF APPLES, THAT WAS JUST DROPPED OFF BEFORE. SOMEBODY CAME BY IN A STATIONWAGON AND DROPPED OFF THAT BOX OF APPLES, AND THEY ASKED ME TO DISTRIBUTE IT. THEY SEE ME OUT THERE A LOT, AND HE WAS JUST AN AMERICAN CITIZEN WHO SAID: HEY, I HAVE EXTRA APPLES, YOU KNOW.

Q. OKAY. WHAT FOOD DO YOU EAT ON THE SITE?

A. I EAT -- I PARTICIPATE. I EAT WITH EVERYONE ELSE. WHATEVER COMES ALONG FOR EVERYONE, I TAKE A LITTLE BIT HERE AND THERE.

Q. AND DO YOU LEAVE THE PARK?

A. I LEAVE THE PARK A LOT LATELY, MORE THAN I WOULD LIKE TO, ACTUALLY, BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN DOING A LOT OF RESEARCH DOWN AT G.W., AND I PLAY MY MUSIC HEKE AND THERE. WHAT ELSE DO I DO? I COMIE DOWN TO THE COURTHOUSE A LOT, AND I GO UP TO THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS ONCE IN A WHILE.

Q. ALL RIGHT.

A. I TRY TO GET AROUND, I TRY TO STUDY AND DO DIFFERENT THINGS.

Q. YOU RECALL A CONVERSATION YOU HAD WITH MR. HUNTER AFTER THE PROCEEDINGS BEFORE TH6 COURT IN JANUARY, I BELIEVE IT WAS, OR PERHAPS EVEN IT WAS MARCH?

A. MAYBE YOU COULD REFRESH MY MEMORY ON THAT.

Q. I WILL TRY TO.

A. OKAY.

Q. DO YOU RECALL A CONVERSATION WITH MR. HUNTER ON JANUARY 21, 1983, AT APPROXIMATELY THREE HOURS BEFORE YOU APPEARED BEFORE THIS COURT, IN WHICH YOU INDICATED THAT YOU WOULD NOT COMPLY WITH THE CONDITION TO HAVE ONLY ONE BLANKET; AND THAT YOU DID NOT INTEND TO LEAVE THE PARK FOR EACH 24-HOUR PERIOD FOR BATHING AND PERSONAL MAINTENANCE? DO YOU RECALL THAT CONVERSATION, OR DID YOU MAKE THAT STATEMENT?

A. NO.

Q. ALL RIGHT. CORRECT ME AND PLEASE LET US KNOW WHAT YOU TOLD MR. H1UNTER THAT DAY?

A. NOW, I AM NOT SURE OF THE DATE OR THE TIME, BUT I KNOW THAT, AFTER I LEFT THIS COURTROOM, I WENT BACK TO THE PARK. WHEN THE PROBATION CONDITTONS WERE IMPOSED ON ME, I WENT BACK TO THE PARK. I WAS THERE FOH A WHLE, AND I DECIDED THAT THERE IS NO WAY THAT I COULD STAY OUT THERE WITH ONLY ONE BLANKET. SO I CALLED MR. HUNTER AND TOLD HIM THAT THERE WAS NO WAY THAT I COULD STAY OUT THERE WITH ONE BLANKET, AND I DID NOT BELIEVE THAT LEAVING THE PARK EVERY DAY FOR FIVE HOURS WAS CONSTITUTIONAL. I TOLD HIM THAT I WOULD LIKE TO BRING THAT UP, MAYBE, AGAIN BEFORE JUDGE OBERDORFER TO SEE IF HE WOULD -- WHATEVER HE WOULD LIKE TO DO ABOUT THAT. NOW, THEN, AS FAR AS LEAVING THE PARK FOR BATHING AND CLEANING, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT T HAVE ALWAYS DONE SINCE I HAVE BEEN THERE. I ALWAYS LEAVE THE PARK TO TAKE SHOWERS, WASH CLOTHES, CLEAN THINGS. I AM NOT USING THE PARK FOR A A PLACE TO LIVE. I AM USING THE PARK AS A PLACE TO DEOMNSTRATE MY LIFESTYLE. SO THAT THERE'S A VERY IMPORTANT -- A FINE LINE THERE. ME, I WOULD SAY -- I WOULD SPEND 20 HOURS A WEEK OUT OF THE PARK FMAINTENANCE OF BODY, THINGS LIKE THAT. OTHERWISE, I TRY TO STAY IN THE PARK TO COMMUNICATE.

I HAVE SIGNS. I PLAY MY MUSIC, PASS OUT LITERATURE, TALK TO PEOPLE, WHATEVER THE CASE MAY BE.

Q. ALL RIGHT. SINCE THAT CONVERSATION WITH MR. HUNTER, WHAT PORTIONS OF THE COURT'S ORDER COULD YOU NOT FOLLOW BECAUSE YOU FELT THAT IT WAS INFRINGING ON YOUR RIGHTS?

A. WELL, I WOULD SAY THAT NOT HAVING MORE THAN ONE BLANKET IS INFRINGING ON MY RIGHTS. I THINK THAT IS ABSOLUTELY RIDIC- LOUS. NO ONE POSSIBLY CAN GO OUT THERE AND SPEND A WINTER OUT IN LAFAYETTE PARK, OR EVEN THE SPRING AND FALL, WITH ONLY ONE BLANKET. AS FAR AS THE FIVE HOURS GOING OUT OF TH5 PARK, I DON'T SEE ANY REASON FOR THAT. NOW, IF THE COURT STILL SEES A REASON FOR THAT AND THEY WANT TO ENFORCE THAT, I HAVE BEEN PRETTY MUCH LEAVING TH5 PARK FOR FIVE HOURS A DAY, ANYWAY, BUT ONLY BECAUSE I HAVE OTHER THINGS TO D0. I STILL THINK THAT, ON PRINCIPLE, IT IS AN UNCONSTITUTIONAL ORDER, AND I WOULD ASK THE JUDGE TO RECONSIDER THAT CONDITION.

Q. ALL RIGHT.
WHAT OTHER PORTIONS OF THS COURT'S ORDER DO YOU FEEL THAT YOU SHOULDN'T COMPLY WITH? ANYTHING ELSE?

A. WELL, I SHOULDN'T COMPLY WITH? IT IS MORE LIKE WHAT IS REASONABLE AND WHAT IS UNREASONABLE

Q. WHAT DO YOU THINK IS UNREASONABLE ABOUT THE COURT'S ORDER.

A. I WOULD SAY THOSE ARE THE BASIC THINGS. I MEAN I MAY NOT TO HAVE, YOU KNOW, TOO MUCH STUFF THIERE ANYWAY, BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE TO BE CONCERNED WITH A LOT OF STUFF THERE.

Q. WHERE DO YOU SLEEP? DO YOU SLEEP ANYWHERE OTHER THAN IN THE PARK?

A. SOMETIMES I --A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO, I WENT OUT TO A FRIEND'S HOUSE AND SLEPT THERE FOR A FEW DAYS. SO ONCE IN A WHILE, I DO. I TRY TO GET SOMEWHERE WHERE I CAN GET SOME QUIET RELIEF, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE THERE IS CONSTANT NOISE RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF THE WHITE HOUSE. SO IT IS NOT A PLACE WHERE I WOULD GO TO GET A NAP OR SLEEP AT ALL.

Q. MAYBE YOU HAVE ALREADY ANSWERED THIS QUESTION, BUT IN A MONTH'S TIME, COULD YOU ESTIMATE HOW OFTEN, OR HOW MANY HOURS, YOU WOULD LEAVE THE PARK?

A. IT IS HARD TO SAY. EVERY DAY IS DIFFERENT. SOME DAVS, LIKE YESTERDAY, I WAS OUT OR THE PARK ALL DAY, BECAUSE I WENT TO THE LIBRARY AND WENT DOWN TO THE COURTHOUSE. AROUND A LOT. BUT SOME DAYS I STAY THERE ALL DAY LONG. IT IS A QUESTION OF, YOU KNOW, THAT I DON'T HAVE A SET PROGRAM THAT I FOLLOW. I DO WHATEVER I NEED TO DO THAT DAY, AND IF IT MEANS BEING IN THE PARK OR OUT OF THE PARK, I DO THAT. THANK YOU.

MR. FINNEGAN: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE YOU WANT TO SAY?

THE WITNESS: NOT THAT I CAN THINK OF, SIR.

THE COURT: MH. SEMPLE, YOU SAY THAT YOU HAVE BEEN LEAVING THE PARK OFF AND ON, NOT NECESSARILY FIVE HOURS A DAY, BUT, OVER A WEEK, IT WOULD COME OUT TO AN AVERAGE OF FIVE HOURS A DAY?

THE WITNESS: I WOULD SAY SO. I WOULD SAY THAT I USE ABOUT 20 HOURS A WEEK FOR WASHING CLOTHES, TALKING SHOWERS, AND THINGS LIKE THAT, WHICH I CAN'T DO IN THE PARK, ANYWAY. I WOULD NOT REALLY NECESSARILY WANT TO, UNLESS THERE WAS A BATHHOUSE THERE, BUT THERE IS NOT. SO I HAVE NO PROBLEMS.

THE COURT: SUPPOSE THE OHDER REQUIRED YOU TO SPEND 35 HOURS A WEEK, THAT IS, AN AVERAGE OF FIVE HOURS A DAY, OUT OF THE PARK. COULD YOU COMPLY WITH THAT WITHOUT CAUSING THE POLICE ALL OF THIS TROUBLE? THE WITNESS: I CAN COMPLY WITH IT, BUT ARE THE POLICE GOING TO NONITOR THAT? THE COURT: WELL, SOMEBODY IS, OR SOMEBODY COULD. YOU COULD. THE WITNESS: SIR, I COULD, AND I CAN DO THAT, I STILL DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THERE IS ANY LAW SAYING THAT. THE COURT THE PROBLEM, MR. SEMPLE, IS AS YOU SAID, THAT THERE IS A FINEZ LINE. THESE OFFICERS ARE PART OF THE COUNTRY, TOO. THE WITNESS: RIGHT THE COURT: AND IF THEY WERE NOT THERE, OR IF SOMEBODY

-35- LIKE THEM WERE NOT THERE, PEOPLE GET KILLED AND SHOT ALL OVER THE PLACE. YOU MIGHT BE ONE OF THEM. THE WITNESS: WELL, I -- THE COURT: LET ME FTNISH. THEY PERFORM A ROLE. THEY HAVE A DUTY TO ENFORCE A REGULATION TNAT SAYS THAT THERE SHOULD BE NO CAMPING. YOU HAVE A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO DEMONSTRATE IN THE PARK. THERE HAS TO BE SOMEWHERE THAT A LINE CAN BE DRAWN THAT IS CONSISTENT WITH YOUR EXERCISE OF YOUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT AND THAT WILL ALSO RELIEVE THESE GENTLEMENT CF THE NEED TO BOTHER YOU BECAUSE THEY ARE ENFORCING THIS REGULATION. THEY HAVE -- IT IS THEIR JOB. THAT IS THE LAW, AND THE CONSTITUTION IS LAW. NOW, YOU SAY THAT IT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL TO REQUIRE YOU TO BE OUT OF THE PARK ANY PARTICULAR LENGTH OF TIME. THE REASON THAT IT IS DONE IS IN ORDER TO CONFORM YOUR EXERCISE OF YOUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO THE PUBLIC'S CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO PROTECT THE PARK FROM CAMPING YOU DO NOT QUESTION THE RIGHT OF THE GOVERNMENT TO PREVENT CAMPING IN THE PARK. THE WITNESS: WELL, I QUESTION THE RIGHT OF THE GOVERNMENT, THE GOVERNMENT'S RIGHT, TO MAKE ANY LAWS AT ALL. THE COURT: THEN YOU HAVE TO GO TO JAIL. ALL RIGHT. THE WITNESS: I DON'T MEAN THAT I WOULD FIGHT THAT ON A PHYSICAL LEVEL, BUT I WOULD JUST SAY ON A SPIRITUAL LEVEL.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THE WITNESS: BECAUSE I BELIEVE THAT GOD MAKES THE LAWS, BUT I AM NOT SAYING THAT I AM NOT WILLING TO COMFORM TO THE GOVERNMENT'S --

THE COURT: WELL, THE LAW PROHIBITS CAMPING

THE WITNESS: YES, SIR, I AM WILLING TO DEAL WITH THAT.

THE COURT: THE LAW PROTECTS YOUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO DEMONSTRATE. THE LAW IS THE CONSTITUTTON AND THE --

THE WITNESS: RIGHT.

THE COURT: -- AND THE CONSTITUTION IS THE LAW.

THE WITNESS: OKAY. THE WAY IT STANDS, YES, SIR, I AGREE WITH THAT. THE COURT: NOW, THERE MUST BE SOME WAY TO SATISFY YOUR NEED, YOUR LEGITIMATE NEED TO DEMONSTRATE, AND TO SATISFY THE LEGITIMATE OBLIGATIONS OF THE POLICE AND THE PROSECUTORS TO CARRY OUT THEIR OBLIGATION TO THE LAW THAT THERE BE N0 CAMPING IN THE PARK. NOW, I DESIGNED A FORMULA AND TRIED IT ON YOU AS AN EXPERIMENT THAT WOULD ENABLE THEM TO SATISFY THEMSELVES THAT, WHILE YOU ARE DEMONSTRATING, YOU ARE NOT CAMPING. NOW, TO DO THAT, I PICKED OUT SOME ITEMS WHICH WERE IN MY MIND, BADGES OF CAMPING AND SOME OTHER ITEMS THAT WERE APPROPRIATE FOR A LONG DEMONSTRATION. I HAVE TRIED TO PUT ONE ON ONE SIDE AND ONE ON THE OTHER.

NOW, IF YOU WERE TO STAY IN THE PARK FOR 24 HOURS A DAY, SEVEN DAYS A WEEK, WHICH YOU DO NOT, IT WOULD BE HARD TO SAY THAT YOU WERE NOT CAMPING. NOW, YOU REPRESENTED IN YOUR PERMIT APPLICATION, AND THE PERMIT WAS GRANTED ON THE REPRESENTATION, THAT YOU WOULD LEAVE THE PARK, AS YOU SAID, TO WASH, TO LAUNDER YOUR CLOTHES, TO PREPARE FOOD, TO STORE PERSONAL PROPERTY AND PERFORM AND I AM QUOTING -- ELEMENTARY AND OTHER BIOLOGICAL BODY FUNCTIONS.

THE WITNESS: THAT IS CORRECT. THE COURT: AND YOU HAVE TESTIFIED THAT YOU DO THAT AND THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT YOU DO NOT. YOU HAVE ALSO TESTIFIED THAT, FOR OTHER REASONS YOU LEAVE THE PARK. YOU HAVE INDICATED THAT THE FIRST ASPECT OF IT CONSUMES ABOUT 20 HOURS A WEEK.

THE WITNESS: YES, I WOULD SAY THE BODILY FUNCTIONS.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. AND THE OTHER THINGS CONSUME SOME MORE TIME.

THE WITNESS: I WOULD SAY 15, MAYBE MORE.

THE COURT: SO THAT IS 35. NOW, YOU TELL ME. I AM TRYING TO BALANCE THIS THING. I AM NOT TRYING TO USE A MEAT AXE HERE.

THE WITNESS: RIGHT. I UNDERSTAND.

THE COURT: DO YOU HAVE ANY REASON TO BELIEVE --

YOUR CONSCIENCE, IN THE FIRST INSTANCE, WOULD BE YOUR GUIDE THAT YOU COULD NOT COMPLY WITH AN ORDER THAT SAYS THAT YOU WOULD BE ABSENT FROM THE PARK 35 HOURS OUT OF EACH WEEK FOR THESE PURPOSES, OR ANY OTHER PURPOSE? THE WITNESS: I WOULD SAY THAT THAT IS THE CASE.

THE COURT: SO WHAT IS IMPRACTICAL ABOUT THAT?

THE WITNESS: I JUST, ON PRINCIPLE, I JUST QUESTION THE PRINCIPALITY OF IT.

THE COURT: LET'S SEE, NOW. TO TEST THE IDEA OF YOUR PRINCIPLE, THE PRINCIPLE IS THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO DEMONSTRATE. YOU SEE WHAT YOU DO? WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS THIS,

MR. SEMPLE: THS EASY WAY TO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM IS TO PUT YOU IN JAIL. YOU DO NOT DEMONSTRATE IN JAIL. THAT IS, YOU DO NOT DEMONSTRATE IN LAFAYETTE PARK WHEN YOU ARE IN JAIL. HOWEVER, THERE OUGHT TO BE SOME WAY SHORT OF THAT TO CAUSE YOU TO COMPLY WITH THE LAW AND STILL DEMONSTRATE.

THE WITNESS: I AM TRYING TO COMPLY WITH THE LAW SIR.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WELL, NOW, THE LAW HAS BEEN THAT YOU WOULD BE OUT OF THE PARK FIVE HOURS A DAY. YOU CLAIM CONSCIENTIOUSLY THAT THAT IS A VIOLATION OF YOUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS. YOU ALSO SAY THAT YOU ARE OUT OF THE PARK 35 HOURS

THE WITNESS: YES, SIR

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. AND OF ALL OF THE CLOTHING ITEMS THAT YOU WERE DEPRIVED, IT IS THE ONE BLANKET THAT HAS CAUSED THE MOST GRIEF:

THE WITNESS: THAT IS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, MR. SEMPLE. YOU MAY STEP DOWN.

MR. FINNEGAN: IF I MAY, YOUR HONOR, I JUST HAVE

THE COURT: YES, GO AHEAD.

BY MR. FINNEGAN:

Q. MR. SEMPLE, WHAT FORMS OF AUTHORITY DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT COULD MAKE YOU DO WHAT THE AUTHORITY ASKS YOU TO DO?

A. WELL, I THINK REASON WOULD BE ONE.

Q. AS DEFINED BY --

A. AS DEFISED BY ALL INDIVIDUALS WORKING FOR THE COMMON WELFARE OF EVERYONE. YOU WOULD RECOGNIZE AUTHORITY THAT AGREES WITH WHAT YOU BELIEVE IS REASONABLE?

A. NO, SIR. I WOULD FOLLOW THE AUTHORITY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Q. ALL RIGHT. THE COURT: MR. FINNEGAN, THIS IS GETTING THEOLOGICAL

THE WITNESS: EXCUSE ME, SIR?

MR. FINNEGAN: MY POSITTON IS THAT MR. SEMPLE DOES NOT RECOGNIZE AUTHORITY BEYOND HIMSELF.

THE COURT: WELL, I THINK THAT WHAT HE IS SAYING IS THAT HE THINKS THE AUTHORITY OF REASON -

MR. FINNEGAN: AS DEFINED BY HIMSELF.

THE COURT: THIS IS GETTING LIKE DARROW AND --

MR. FINNEGAN: IT IS ENTERTAINING, AT LEAST, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: NO.

THE WITNESS: MR. FINNEGAN, MAY I PLEASE

THE COURT: THIS IS DETERIORATING, GENTLEMEN. I WILL CUT YOU OFF, MR. FINNEGAN. I DON'T NEED TO HEAR ANY MORE, MR. SEMPLE.

THE WITNESS: YES, SIR.

THE COURT: THANK YOU. YOU MAY STEP DOWN AND COME TO THE PODIUM, MR. SEMPLE. I AM GOING TO MODIFY, AND I WILL DO IT IN WRITING, MY ORDER THAT WAS FILED FEBRUARY 11TH, IN TERMS OF ITS REQUIREMENTS AS TO THE THINGS THAT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO HAVE IN YOUR POSSESSION, AND NOT HAVE IN YOUR POSSESSION, IN THE PARK. I AM GOING TO CHANGE THAT TO REQUIRE YOU, AS A CONDITION OF PROBATION, TO CONFORM TO THE UNDERTAKING THAT YOU MADE WHEN YOU APPLIED FOR A PERMIT, WHICH WAS GRANTED.

MR. SEMPLE: YES, SIR.

THE COURT: IN LIEU OF THE REQUIREMENT THAT YOU REMOVE YOURSELF FROM THE PARK FOR FIVE CONSECUTIVE HOURS EVERY 24 HOURS, I AM GOING TO REQUIRE THAT YOU REMOVE YOURSELF

FROM THE PARK FOR A TOTAL OF 35 HOURS EACH WEEK. NOW, I AM NOT GOING TO MAKE IT AN EXPRESS REQUIREMENT OF THE WRITTEN ORDER, BUT I SUGGEST TO YOU -- COULD YOU KEEP PENCIL AND PAPER IN THE PARK?

MR. SEMPLE: OH, YES.

THE COURT: (CONTINUING PREVIOUS STATEMENT) -- THAT YOU KEEP A RECORD, FOR YOUR OWN PROTECTION, OF WHEN YOU ARE OUT OF THE PARK AND WHEN YOU ARE NOT.

MR. SEMPLE: I AM JUST TRYING TO MAKE MY LIFE SIMPLE.

THE COURT: WELL, THAT IS NOT HARD. YOU DO NOT VIOLATE PROBATION BY FAILING TO DO THAT. THAT IS JUST A SUGGESTION.

MR. SEMPLE: JUST FOR MY OWN RECORD?

THE COURT: FOR YOUR OWN RECORD, IN CASE SOMEBODY QUARRELS WITH YOU ABOUT WHETHER YOU ARE OUT OR NOT OUT.

MR. SEMPLE: ALL RIGHT.

THE COURT: NOW, I AM TAKING THIS UNDER ADVISEMENT, AND, MR. FINNEGAN, I WILL BE GLAD TO HEAR YOU ON THIS, EITHER NOW OR AT ANOTHER TIME, THIS MATTER NOW PENDING APPEAL, WHETHER I NEED TO HAVE IT REMANDED TO ME TO PERFECT THE RECORD BY FILING AN EXPLANATION OF MY JUDGMENT AFFIRMING THE CONVICTION.

MR. FINNEGAN: I WOULD BELIEVE THAT YOUR HONOR REALLY HAS NO AUTHORITY TO DO ANY OFFICIAL ACT AT THIS POINT,

SIR.

THE COURT: I UNDERSTAND, BUT I CAN REQUEST THE COURT OF APPEALS TO REMAND IT.

MR. FINNEGAN: YES. I WOULD SUGGEST THAT IT WOULD HAVE TO BE DONE IN ORDER FOR YOUR HONOR TO TAKE ANY OTHER ACTION, OTHER THAN THE TAKING OF EVIDENCE ON THIS PARTICULAR DAY.

THE COURT: I UNDERSTAND THAT. THE QUESTION IS WHETHER YOU HAVE A POSITION WITH RESPECT TO MY OBLIGATION -- MAYBE IT IS JUST MY OBLIGATION TO MYSELF -- TO APPLY TO THE COURT OF APPEALS TO REMAND THE MATTER.

MR. FINNEGAN: I WOULD ONLY POINT OUT THAT AT THE TIME WHEN YOUR HONOR AFFIRMED THE CONVICTION BY MAGISTRATE BURNETT, YOU SAW NO REASON FOR A CHANGE OF --

THE COURT: I UNDERSTAND THAT.

MR. FINNEGAN: SO I WOULD AGREE THAT AN EXPLANATION WOULD COMPLETE THE RECORD, AND YOUR HONOR SHOULD STRIVE TO DO THAT.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU.

MR. FINNEGAN: YES, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: THANK YOU, MR. FINNEGAN. I WANT TO SAY TO YOU AND TO THE OFFICERS THAT I DON'T FIND THIS EASY.

MR. FINNEGAN: IT IS NOT AN EASY --

THE COURT: THIS IS NOT LAW ENFORCEMENT, THIS

IS SOMETHING ELSE, AND I AM SYMPATHETIC WITH THEM, AS I AM WITH YOU, AND I HOPE YOU ALL ARE WITH ME.

MR. FINNEGAN: YOUR HONOR, YOUR EFFORTS ARE MAGNIFICENT THE COURT'S PATIENCE HAS BEEN DEMONSTRATED OVER AND OVER.

THE COURT: MR. SEMPLE, I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND -- AND THIS IS NOT A THREAT; I AM NOT SAYING THIS AS A THREAT I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT WHAT I AM TRYING TO DO IS AN ALTERNATIVE TO WHAT WOULD NORMALLY BE THE RESULT IN A CASE LIKE YOURS, NAMELY, INCARCERATION.

MR. SEMPLE: YES. I HAVE ALREADY BEEN INCARCERATED ONCE.

THE COURT: AND I DO NOT THINK ANYBODY IN THIS ROOM BELIEVES THAT IS IN ORDER, UNLESS YOU MAKE IT DIFFICULT OR IMPOSSIBLE TO DESIGN AND CARRY OUT AN ALTERNATIVE. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

MR. SEMPLE: YES, SIR.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.

MR. SEMPLE: EXCUSE ME. WOULD YOU BE OFFENDED IF WE MAYBE CHALLENGED THE -- I KNOW WE HAVE ALREADY DISCUSSED IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN -- LEAVING THE PARK, IF WE CHALLENGED IT?

THE COURT: WHETHER YOU OFFEND ME OR NOT IS IMMATERIAL IT IS WHETHER YOU VIOLATE THE LAW.

(WHEREUPON, THE COURT ADJOURNED THE HEARING AT 11:00 O'CLOCK A. M.)

I, THOMAS DOURIAN, CERTIFY THAT THE FOREGOING IS THE OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT OF THE PROCEEDINGS IN THE ABOVE- ENTITLED MATTER; AND THAT IT IS COMPLETE AND ACCURATE, TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE AND ABILITY.

OFFICIAL REPORTER (signed)